Featuring: Mindy Honcoop

Mindy Honcoop  takes us on a journey of her problems only to find failures weren't her fault, and there's a whole lot of success to celebrate.

Check out Agile in HR here or her Journey Line here.

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Hello and welcome to Journey Lines, the podcast answering the question, how did they get there? I'm your host Kim Minnick. Each episode, I invite a guest to fill out a reflective exercise called a journey line plotting the highs and lows of their career against a line of neutrality. With me today, Mindy Honkoop. Mindy, how are you? Ah, Kim, I am doing so good. Thank you so much. I've been excited for this conversation. I am so excited. was just telling Mindy that we took uh an unplanned hiatus and we're back. We're dusting off the cobwebs and I am just so excited to have you here. uh And you're down in Texas. Yes, I am down in Texas. are, our summer is starting early. Ooh, well, I wish you uh lots of AC and cool nights. yes, exactly. Well, before we dive into your journey line, I would love to know what are you up to today? Personally, professionally, holistically, what you got going on? I I love where I am today. I'm just feeling like I'm in the groove. I just even today got to have a coffee with someone that is also doing incredible work within workplaces to help people rethink how they work. And it's just an incredible reminder. And she's been doing this for several years. ah I feel like a baby. I feel like a baby in what I do. And it's just so refreshing to kind of as a solopreneur talk with others and just learn and just be in community. And it just reminded me of what a joy do I have to be able to get up every day and do this. Sure, it is hard and I'm not alone, but it's good to like, you know, be with others to just put everything in perspective. Also, you know, I have started Catalytic Culture Mastermind Group with Marnie Robbins. which is a pilot program where we get to take a group of HR professionals and leaders. It's a group of six people. We're piloting this idea as a three month program where we get to walk with alongside of them, walk with them. They get to learn about human centered design and agile frameworks. But in this group, also in one-on-ones with Marnie and I, and across three months actually apply what they're learning to solve a real world current issue in their work. place and be able to come alongside of us so they're not alone and they're not overwhelmed. They actually get to see how this works and be able to learn from others in the group as well. So it has been such a joy. We're in month two of that three month journey. And of course, you you have great learnings. Of course there's things we could do better, but it's been just a blast. What a fun way to get like a little army of HR professionals out there. Like really helping rethink work and making it better for everyone. Exactly. And not just going to another webinar, because often some of the things I was hearing, Kim, was, man, I know I need to learn about AI. I know I want to be rethinking how I work, but I'm just barely making it through my day. I am just trying to get through day to day. And I want to be doing it differently, and I'm trying here and there, but I just, I know I'm an overwhelm and I go to these webinars and I learn, but actually it's making it worse because then I feel guilty or I have this level of shame around why can't I take those learnings and I go back? Why can't I find the time to make this happen? So that was also one of the many voices and one of the many um pain points that Marnie and I were super passionate about trying to change the narrative to help. people actually be able to learn and be able to apply that learning. Amazing. I love it. Ah, what a great thing. Ah, well, well with that, let's figure out how you got there. And this journey line is wild. I will do a, you have your copy up and I have mine up. And we are, this is a rare instance to start off kind of low. left and said that's when you were five. Oh, we're going away. I was running after him crying, saying, Daddy, Daddy, don't leave. I love you. And he turned around and he said, that's your problem. delight of a human. Real number one there. you know, it took a lot of years because it's very easy to label that as bad. ah And after many years of great conversations and um therapy, it really is seeing, because my dad also is a broken person. that was him doing his best. You know, and he came from a very broken place. And I think in many ways, reflecting back. Well, we haven't had that direct conversation. I think in his perspective, he was like, I'm doing the best I can and it's not good enough and I need to leave. Yeah, wow, that's a, I mean, a lot of years, a lot of conversations, but what a place to come to. that's hearing that. Yeah. Do you have any relationship with him now or was that kind of the last strained? m really because it's through uh my sisters. I have half sisters from my dad's first marriage that we didn't even know existed until I was 12, and showed up and we met, and she's amazing. Absolutely love my youngest half sister, and we have such a close relationship, and she never knew my dad, because my dad left her when she wasn't even born yet. He went to go get milk and never came home. And so her mom remarried and she had this amazing uh adoptive father and unfortunately he passed away at a young age. And so that is what prompted her to find my dad. And so now through that, I have this incredible additional extended family, which is just so beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. strained relationship with my dad and don't have the bonus family to go along with it. So, mean, wild how some of the most valuable people in our lives come to us in the strangest ways. 100 % yeah So at five years old, you start climbing out of this delightful pit. And the next spot on your journey line is actually another part of your family. We're going up to like, either the right at the line or just above, the grandparents and a Dutch immigrant community. Tell me everything about them. My grandma and grandpa wind were just, you know, they were, I know this is so silly. My grandpa would always say, okay, how do you spell your last? He's like, it's W-I-N-D just like it blows. I always think wind's so supportive, right? You see those birds just soaring on wind currents. And that's what my grandparents were like for me. It was like a breath of fresh air. was a baked-in dad and a mom, because my mom had to go back to work. She had to completely set aside her passion, which was to be a counselor. She went to school to be a counselor. She set that aside to then start to become a bookkeeper. and work in a family, part of the business with my great uncle. And uh we didn't get to see her a whole lot, but my grandparents stepped in. We moved within walking distance of their house and they really became... I had like three parents and my grandparents just infused us with uh so much love. And yeah, of course they had their unique things, right? Because we're human and we're messy, but yeah, my grandparents were incredible. I was a part of this Dutch immigrant community, which I have written there too. My great grandfather who passed away when I can't remember the exact age, but it was after my dad left. My great grandfather was this amazing human. He was my grandpa's dad and he immigrated from Holland, from the Netherlands, actually twice. He went through Ellis Island twice and he, you know, was his Dutch roots are very important to him. So we grew up within this very kind of Dutch immigrant community within the Seattle area that kind of had a church and a school associated with it. Yeah. And that community helped raise me. My mom always says, a village raised you. I mean genuinely. What were, I mean that feels so unique, like Dutch and Seattle. What was that like growing up? It was interesting. Because you have this richness of this family and this community that often, and because I went to the, because I was a scholarship kid, the church helped pay for the tuition to go to the school there, because the school district in the area that we lived in wasn't the best, the public school. And so I think when I would... When you meet other people on your neighborhood street, you're just seeing something very different. People didn't know their grandparents. They didn't have this extended family or community. I got to see community in action. It's like everyone was just this love fest. You saw the people who were... coming alongside and supporting my family because they genuinely cared and loved and others because it was a sense of a calling because they felt they had to, like there was no other option because it was this community of the Dutch immigrants and you take care of each other whether you like it or not. And so, but how beautiful is that, that you come alongside of people because we're all gonna come up to points in our life where uh we need help. and it was a place that you could ask for help and no matter what, there'd always be someone there. And so I saw the power of community from a very, very young age. It's really helped shape oh a lot of the work that I do now and why I think I'm so passionate about community building and connecting people. Cause that's just what, if you went to someone in the Dutch church and you say, have this and this, they'll like, I know someone who you need to meet that can do that. So I feel like even five year old little Mindy was like a natural born community builder and connector because that's just, that's what you did. Yeah, do you... something I've been struggling with lately, thinking about community. Similarly, I've been fostering my own, but it feels so anti-American almost. It feels like, it feels almost like a resistance of I'm going to build community. I'm going to have more people. I wonder if you feel similarly as you kind of look across uh the great states of the U.S. Yes, yes, because I mean, even you can kind of say the nuances of like neighbors on the street growing up that are literally living right next to you versus this Dutch immigrant community that they were dispersed throughout Seattle. It's not like we live next to each other. were all literally coming together. they are coming together and driving. The church was at the center and the school of the community, or like community events, of course, right? ah But it's not like we lived all together. And so you would have your neighborhood kids that I would say that there is a sense of, it's like a sense of sacrifice too, like to care for others, right? Like if someone needs help, like if someone in the church needed help getting their car started, then. that any mechanics would like sacrifice their time to go help that person that needed. And so there's just a sense of, I think in others that I see around, I can fix this, I can do it, or the sense of even self, I love self care, please, whoever's listening to this, don't take that wrong. Like there's this level of self care that's so important, but I think it often can feel even self care overwhelming that, because if it's not working, you're like, How do I do more self care? That's a burden. I can't care for myself. There's an extent to where you can't care for yourself in some places. And you do need what my friend recoined in her work as a coach. She calls it, we care, we care, which I just love. And that's what my Dutch immigrant community did. We care, whether we want to or we like to or not, that's what we are. We're a community. That's a responsibility for each other. um And so that's, I think I do notice that difference, especially when I lived in Switzerland. We'll get there. I don't want to move ahead too fast, but that was a huge difference that I saw. I don't want to spoil it, but like from my friends that don't live in the U.S. it's just kind of ingrained, like even caring for your family members, right? Elderly, caring for your elderly family members. I have an aunt and uncle that I absolutely love that I need. I wish I could be there with them there more. um So yeah, I don't know if that's naturally, and my other international friends and I really bond around this because I think I grew up in that and that mindset is just there. That's different from my friends that were born and raised that don't have this kind of this international connection. And they were kind of born and raised within the US culture. Yeah, well, speaking of US culture and born and raised, you are not within the Dutch immigrant community all the time. And I see we slide back down underneath that line of neutrality. Speaks to my soul, being a nerd, check. First divorced kid at a Christian school sounds... Man, that sounds like a title nobody wants. No, no, this isn't like I'm ancient. I'm not ancient. There were divorced families happening back in the 80s. yeah, because it would have been in the early 80s. um So yeah, first divorced kid in my church too. First divorced family in that church. So, and it was through counseling sessions with the pastor that really helped, I think, because it just wasn't a healthy, it wasn't healthy. Mm-hmm. my dad and my mom, it just wasn't healthy. There's a lot of kind of emotional turmoil that was happening. um And so yeah, it wasn't cool. And kids are mean, kids can be really mean. And I was kind of like, I was a nerd. So of course you're smart. And I just love to learn. That was like, I just was, I always was the kind of person that was sitting off. to the side. I always had one friend though, Kim. There was always one other person that I kind of came alongside of that, you know, the invisible kid that like, it doesn't seem like anyone else sees, but I would be like, I see you over there. I see you. Let's, let's us be friends. And so that kind of growing up from kindergarten on, but once I got into junior high and high school, and that might be later in the line, then the internet like really helped unlock. uh a new community for me. No, I don't think you have your new... Well, we just go straight from Kids Are Mean to University of Washington. Well, I can really quickly the multi-line bulletin board system. I my I just came from a nerdy family. My mom and I somehow are gifted this computer and we had the Internet and this is like early on Internet. Right. It's just like a multi-line bulletin board system. So you're able to like chat with people and it had. Yeah. Yes, yes. and it was a family-based one, and I think it was a lot of homeschoolers as well. There was also kids kind of in other public schools, Christian private schools, so was a really interesting mix of humans, and we would also get together for social events. So we'd play softball together, and so it was fun, but that just brought me out of my shell. It brought me out of this group of mean kids. It's like I saw, I found myself, I kind of found my voice and I found this incredible uh group of people. Some of them I'm still really close to too. And there were some kids in older classes once I got to high school, kind of like, cause in middle school, I feel like you only know the kids in your class. But once I started getting junior high and high school, I made friends with a lot of kids that were in different grades. And I found my nerd herd. Yes, yes. Yup. Yup. are you doing with the nerd? The nerd heard it. my goodness. I mean such nerdy things. mean, as I said, softball, we're probably, you know, we also, we were also like Christian nerd heard. So we were also like in our youth group and Bible studies and, you know, reading books together. When I was really little, I would reenact like books, like Little House on the Prairie. Me and my friend would like reenact like, Little House on the Prairie and it's so nerdy. um Yeah, so we would watch movies, not so much video games, but we would also go hiking, go on walks. m I don't feel like really very crazy stuff. It's just so nerdy. It's like academic stuff. Foosball, loved the foosball, volleyball. Can I tell you, there is, this just opened up like down the street for me, there's a new pinball arcade. Do you want to come over? my goodness, I wanna come over. And then do they have like Skee-ball? Cause that's another nerdy thing we did with Skee-ball. love Ski-Ball. don't know if they have it. I haven't even been yet. They like just opened. Okay. yeah. And then roller skating. That was another thing we did. I used to choreograph dances in my roller skates. How nerdy is that? And my family would watch it, 4th of July. Yeah. is almost as good. used to, um me and my friends, Sarah Cameron got a video camera and we would do like Bill Nye the Science Guy episodes. We would do um music videos and then we would make them all watch it. Kim. You would have been included in my nerd herd. nerd hurt and I'm like, God, your childhood sounds so cool. What are you talking about? So now I'm just reflecting on my own childhood. I love it. This is so good. Okay, well, childhood doesn't last forever and you go over to the University of Washington. yes, yeah. Oh my goodness, that was amazing. um So University of Washington was also because I'm a nerd and there was a paragraph in my psychology book in high school that talked about social work. And so then I was like, oh, this just makes sense. Like I've always had this passion to make a positive difference, know, work with the invisible, you know, work to help people that aren't seen be seen. and help them kind of, always just, and then in that one paragraph about social work, was like, this is how you help people kind of, you know, understand where they're at today within the ecosystem, help them realize a future desired state and help guide them through the, you know, change behaviors or iteration of change behavior to get them from where they're at today to where they are, you know, where is that healthier future desired state, but also creating ecosystem awareness oh about how to better serve and support this population of people. I was like, oh my goodness, this is what I wanna do. so, University of Washington was ranked third in the nation of social work programs. And my aunt and uncle, who I adore, both went to University of Washington and they had me walking around that campus at a young age. It's a beautiful campus. And so, it just all aligned. I had some other opportunities and scholarships to go to other spots. But one of those schools, I walked off the plane and wanted to get back on and go home. It was in Iowa. And I knew some of my best friends uh that went to that school. they literally, when I walked off the plane, I was like, okay, what's this smell? Because it walked out, it didn't walk into an airport building. It walked outside. And the stewardess was like, yeah, that's, I want to say it was the pig farm. But she's like, you can know which way the wind's blowing because it will smell differently depending on which way the wind I was like, can I go back to Seattle? It's really flat here too. Where's my mountains? Yeah, so University of Washington it was. And did any of your Nerd Herd crew go with you or was this like a new adventure? No, they went to Iowa. nerd herd, we're still together. There's like a core group of my nerd herd that are still together, which is really rare. I didn't know that was rare, but I love my nerd herd friends. I sure hope that they listen to this, that it's not an offensive. They don't find nerd herd offensive. They, I mean, we're so close. Like we is forged friendship under fire sometimes. And they... They're amazing people. They've gone on to do such incredible things. When I look back at who is in my community and who I know and who I've been blessed to meet along the way, it just blows me away at the things that they do now. It's just amazing. They're so smart. They're so awesome. But they didn't go with me. So that's where I met my husband, and he was at the University of Washington. And yeah, he's three years older than me, so he was a senior and I was a freshman. you know, know when you know, you know when you know, you know when you met the, I'm a goal-oriented person and I was like, this is it, you gotta like seal the deal. And so, you know, I got married between my sophomore and junior year. Yeah. I, that's wild. Yeah, yeah, 20, we're celebrating 27 years in a month. Thank you, thank you, yeah. just feel like you don't, nobody got married in between my sophomore and junior year. once again, Mindy, what in the world are you doing? Because I never thought I was going to get married. Like I, because of what happened, right? Because of, yeah, I just thought, no, I'm going to just, you know, go do the, go own a business. You know, eventually in an MBA, have a business and, and I'm going to be a successful single person with my nerd-herd friends. So. I thought very similarly, I was like, I'm never getting married. I didn't get married in college. It was, you know, very shortly after, to be honest. uh But I was very much, I think when I met my husband, I was like, I'm not, just so you know. And then, you know, here we are, married, happily. It's when you meet your person. uh Any other wild college stories you want to share? You know, I was a study girl. Like, I love the library. The nerdiness has never gone away, Kim. I love it, I love it. So you graduated, I assume with very high marks. did. I graduated, I don't even remember what the words are, but with some honors. I would have had a 4.0 chem if I hadn't broken my back in college, because I was a dance minor. I was a dance minor, I broke my back, and I had to wear a brace for nine months. And there was also my seizures. Huge, huge. I was also, I know, well it's hard, I can't story. can't fit everything. My seizures restarted. So I have had uh epilepsy, like uh absent seizures. So it's not like I have a full grand mal seizure, but I've had those since I was a kid and they had stopped for a year. And when I started college, I was seizure free, but they restarted. And here I am dancing, having 33 seizures in a day. And I just couldn't, I kept almost like tripping and falling. So I wouldn't be able to go to class. That was right before I broke my back and the teacher in that class didn't tell me about hardship withdrawal. She didn't tell me. So I got like a C or something, right? I got like a low grade. I've never gotten a C in my life. And it was in a dance class. I absolutely loved dance. I was a dance minor. And then I was in a dance company for three years uh as a side like fun job. m yeah, so she didn't tell me. So the next class, like, got the seizures handled, because once I'm goal oriented, I'm like, I'm gonna get this dance minor. I'm gonna accept the C, and I go back to dance, and then I broke my back. Well, that teacher was nice and said, I'm like, what do I do? I cannot fail. And she's like, well, don't you know about hardship withdrawal? And I was like, no, what in the world's that? She's like, well, clearly you can't dance, so here's what you do to withdraw. And I was like, my goodness, I was in this class last, like literally just last quarter and she's like, oh, you can't go backwards, but that's so sad. I wish that the teacher should have told you. just like, and my teacher knew about the issue. Anyways, so I still graduated with like a high score, but that C took away my 4.0. Well, I'm gonna give you an honorary 4.0. I don't care. grant your hardship withdrawal and grade forgiveness. Yes, and teachers, be there for your students. It's a wild thing, you know, I know, I mean, I was in classes of hundreds of students, but I imagine dance is probably fairly small. But also, yeah, like, why wouldn't you just tell your student? Maybe they didn't know. Maybe they didn't know. I have no idea. ah Who knows, who knows? It is what it is. So everything that happens is character building. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, so you graduate and then what? Do you go into social work? Social welfare? No. I thought we were gonna, that's why you go low here. Okay, cause Mindy's goal oriented, right? She's got goals and she, you I was valedictorian, I graduated with honors and then I graduated with no job, but that's like huge fail. Like for me, that was a huge failure because I was like in my final year of social work, you have to go through an internship. And of course I choose a very, I was working with juvenile offenders, um which was an incredible experience. And I loved the work that I was doing. A part of me was wanting to do dance and movement therapy. I was considering doing that with juvenile offenders, but I kind of went to a couple of the master's programs and I just wasn't, there was just something off. Well, because I was married, my husband was also in a workplace already, right? and he was going through some interesting workplace experiences and he was kind of seeing my studies and the questions and the work that I was going through. And one night he says, my goodness, this work thing happened. He's like, I wish that my person would have asked me those questions. He's like, what you're studying and learning right now, he's like, that's what I wish my human resource person would have like helped with X, Y, and Z. Or that would have been a lot better retraining if we learned what you're learning. So he's like, you need to meet my HR person. So he like connected the two of us and we had the most phenomenal conversation and she was like, my goodness, the social work would be, she's like, I wish I knew that. And so that's where I started to see the need and also the place where I had an internship with, which I won't say any names, they didn't have an HR person. So my thesis was like, with the, you know, the power of social, welfare and social work within workplaces and the great need for human resources and that lens and how powerful that is. um And that was my thesis. That was like my final paper. And they read it and they're actually like, it helped convince them, I believe, if I remember right, to go hire an HR person. So I know, right? But then I would get really passionate about human resources. So I didn't. graduate with a job and I then, you know, then I had to go look for some, some work. So what did you do? When I graduated college, I took the first job I could get, because it was during, I graduated 2009, not a great time. So I took the first job I could get. What did you feel like coming up to graduation and not having a job? Really. so called to do this work. And yes, I'm super passionate about human resources, but what does that even mean? Who's going to hire me without any background in doing this work? I also felt like a part of me too is like, you couldn't make the social work work. There's a part of me that was so drained. And my husband even is like, Mindy, there's none of you left when you come home. You care too much. You care too much. And I also made me nervous about how would that be different within a workplace? And there was just so much that I have self-reflection that happened during that time. um And so I had to go from a place of feeling less than with a lot of limiting beliefs into a job search. Which was not easy. impress employers about my accolades. when I don't even believe in me. Yeah. would they cheerlead me when I'm not cheerleading myself? Like, what a terrible... How did you job? How did you... mentors during this time And and friends right because I had a lot of friends that are older than me that are already in the workplace And I just and that Dutch immigrant community was still there So, I mean just a ton of people right that really helped kind of guide me through this period of time And one of my one of my nerd heard friends actually is a reason why I got the job at Microsoft. So And I was in this line, I was selected from a reject bin, Kim. My resume was in a reject bin at Microsoft. And I always tell this story and I know he's okay with me telling it. um But one of my nerd heart friends, he was at Microsoft and he ah put my name in for an employee referral for a job within their university recruiting team. And he said, he put on the cover letter, it would be a sin not to hire her. I was in the reject bank because I don't have any recruiting experience, which I guess I can understand. But Larry Benish, Larry Benish is amazing. And he is like the best, the best manager, my first manager ever. He was amazing. I love Larry Benish and I'm still in touch with him. He went to the reject ban because he was trying to build a different type of team. was building a sourcing team and that for university recruiting and I don't know if it had been done before, I'm not sure about that, but he wanted people who thought differently. He wanted people who were coming at this from a different approach. So he went into the reject bin to find rejects. Congratulations! of rejects. Now, I don't know if the other people on the team were in the reject bin with me. I just like to think that. ah But they were amazing people from these really interesting backgrounds and I learned so much from them. But yeah, good on Larry because I wouldn't have gone to Microsoft without Larry. And so that contract job ended up becoming a full-time job. that's the longest I've been at any one employer. But they had to kick me out because... I would never have left there. I would still be at Microsoft if they hadn't kicked me out. Were you in recruiting the whole time or did you like jump around to different areas of HR? recruiting, which they called college recruiting, I think back then. And I worked with the, I grew and I ended up becoming the business. They had school aligned recruiters and business aligned recruiters. I, as you get more in tenure there, you own an entire like kind of the, what we would call like a business unit. So I worked with all the windows and I would go into leadership windows meetings along with the HR. and the industry recruiting partner, just the three of us together kind of owned the talent plan. And that was super fascinating. Like I loved it because they used a lot of data. I mean, we're doing a lot of people analytics before it was called like people analytics. It was incredible. We had it down to a science and we had just so much room to play and innovate and to think about things differently. It was so much fun. But we also are doing international recruiting and they restarted, think like version 3.0 international recruiting. And I did a lot of um kind of project management. I was the nerdy person on the team. So anytime there's technology, I was kind of like the SME of all our recruiting technology that our university recruiting team used. And I was like the liaison with the IT team. So anytime they would update something, I'd have to learn about the update, learn how to train people on the update. I have to let them know about any bugs or any issues or feedback that we had around future features that we wanted. And so it was kind of like this little baby project manager was being born and an operation. I just loved fixing things. I loved being able to look at the what I love looking at the things that how do we automate things? How do we streamline? I just naturally was always trying to find a better way. And so oh once international recruiting teams started, I had some ideas in that manager, who's also another great manager. He was like, that sounds like a job. How about you write the job description? I'm like, yeah, sure. here's a job description, I think you need this person, how about you do that job? I was like, what? I've never done this before. He's like, no, you do this job. It was like a project man at operations role. So that is what I did in the international recruiting team towards the end of my time there. But what was cool is we kind of like automated everything, but then, know, 2008 was not a great year and you don't need to be hiring internationally when that happens. So I got kicked out. Were you still, were you doing dance as a side gig while you were at Microsoft? as a side. was in working, I was dancing for three years in dance company in Seattle. It was a nonprofit. So it was like volunteer, but yeah, that was a dream of mine. was once again, Kim, it was a goal. It was a goal to dance. wanted, I grew up wanting to be a dancer. I wanted to perform. So it happened, right? It wasn't exactly in the way I thought about it as a little girl, but yeah, it's still, yeah, it happened. Check, Yeah. Amazing. So you do your tenure at Microsoft, 2008 comes, I assume, along with international recruiting, a lot of things change. yeah, so many things change. And it was weird because they let people go. And then a couple of us, they're like, they, think they're really hopeful. They're like, you're a top performer. We really love you. We want to give you some time to try and look for a job. But it was so weird. I've never seen this. And it was amazing. But they just like, you just, you know, you can just come to work. And it was like, I don't have a job. No, you don't have a job, but you can just still come and, you know, network with people. It's like three months where you can just like, it was, yeah, find it. Yeah. Unfortunately, there were no jobs. at Microsoft, but it was a really great time to stay connected and network and. I mean, what's that like? I feel like when I went through my first laid off, getting laid off, I spiraled into a deep depression. And as somebody who very much aligns themselves with their work and their value with their paycheck, it wasn't great for me. So I'm curious, like, yeah. failed. could it, okay, it's like, I couldn't make the social work work. Now Microsoft doesn't even wanna keep me. Although when it happened, the manager of the manager who I love and she's still an HR leader today, I absolutely love her. I went to go work with her at another company. She was crying and I will never forget, she and I will never forget. And I was like. And she's like, Mindy, are you gonna be okay? And she's crying. She's like, this is the hardest conversation. And I looked at her, I'm like, are you gonna be okay? Are you? Are you okay? But yeah, was, I just love, I love people. I know it was crushing. It was, it was really hard. But because I had people like that manager and other people in my community, they, I was never alone, right? I'm never alone. I mean, I can be if I want to be, but it's about talking. It's about being brave enough to say that it felt like you failed, that, you know, these limiting beliefs don't stay locked in your head because that gives them power. And it is about disempowering those voices. that makes it sound so easy, but it is so hard, Kim. uh cause it's like, felt, can, those lies that those limiting beliefs tell us feel like, here it happens again. This is another proof that you aren't really very good, that no one really values you and you're just tossable, right? I it goes back to the story of my dad left me and it was my problem. So it was reinforcing that old belief on that line, social work, social work didn't work out. uh that's your problem. didn't make it. You weren't strong enough to be able to do that work. Microsoft, they left you. They left you too. And so it's constantly over and over again. could be, but that took years to realize, no, these are very different circumstances, but our brains suck. Our brains suck. Well, we want to recognize a pattern, even if that pattern is detrimental to who our wellbeing is and who we are. right, yeah. Or, know, I truly, you I think keeping us from realizing what we're called to do and step into and, you know, when we're being called to grow and to, you know, I could have been safe at Microsoft, but then I wouldn't have had the rest of this amazing career line. I wouldn't be doing this awesome mastermind group. And it's because of all of that that I'm able to do it. like, some of the most difficult parts, these underlying moments are some of the reasons why I am who I am. And it builds that resiliency and it sucks and it's so hard while you're going through it. But because I have such incredible people around me and because they taught me and modeled for me how to ask for help and they were there, so many incredible people, that's how. I was able to get back above that line. That wasn't me alone doing that. It was the people in my life. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It's always the people reaching out hands and helping you up. And what happened after my... oh SHRM certification as one of my closest people, Jen Porter. She and I were both impacted by that 2008 layoff and she and I both went to get our, it was her idea actually. She was huge motivator uh for me. And so I got my SHRM certification, ah but also just started looking for other things and seeing this time as a blessing. Like she really saw that time as a blessing. And like, what else do we do with this time? And I'm just like, okay, there's a reframe. Like, this is a gift. This is a crappy gift. I mean, that's where I was at first. This sucks. Well, what did you do with said crappy gift? Well, said crappy gift, got a SHRM certification. I also went on a mission trip to Greece. prior to that, I'd been studying Greek for, what is it, three, four years at the Greek Orthodox Church in Seattle. Yeah, another story. uh I'm a nerd, Kim, I'm a nerd. Greek Orthodox, whoa. I'm such a nerd, Kim. If I fall in love with something, I dive deep. I dive deep. And so, and I love the Greek language anyways. So I learned about this mission trip to Greece and I'm like, oh, I, you know, I'm going, I've been studying Greek. bet I could, I could help. They could use my skills. It was a really cool mission trip too, because you're kind of also kind of doing, you're going out into the middle of nowhere and some of these villages only had one or two people left. So some of it was like, almost like a census to like, you know, confirm are there still people in these mountain villages or not. One woman was by herself and she had like, she was fully functional on her own. was her milk from like a goat or I don't remember exactly, but she grew her own plants, had chickens. She was self sustained and she like fed us this incredible meal. Anyways, this mission trip to Greece was like amazing. It was life changing. And then I just felt like, If you go, like if you go, if you're faithful in going, I know it sounds crazy, but I even had enough, my miles of airlines from all the international trips with Microsoft, all those reward points paid for my trip to Greece, the flight. And then it was also funded, like, it was also um crowd funded that trip, because it was a mission trip. So was, I raised money because it was a nonprofit. And so, that I was faithful in doing that and I just felt like, no, do this and I will make a way. It was that faith. It's that faith that it says led strong throughout my life. I just felt purposed. Like if you go, there's gonna be a job for you when you get back. Cause I had been interviewing like nonstop and some of those places never even made it out of the crash. And so I'm glad I didn't end up in them. But like when I came back, I literally landed and almost 48 hours later I had an interview at Expedia. because my husband had previously worked there and had reached out to someone and had set up an interview while I was on this trip. What a hero. When you know, you know. when you know you know and when you're called to do something, I feel like if you're faithful in doing it, I had this weird feeling Kim, that if you go, there will be a job when you come back. So you go, how long was it? How long were you there for? The mission trip was, think, two to three weeks. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And I got the job. Yeah, yeah. And then that job was like, you know when you hire people that really should just be a problem that you solve through like automation or streamlining or that was a job. So I basically worked with this incredible group of people. I mean, that's a story in of itself. I won't go into it. um But within like a short amount of time, I want to say eight months, I basically worked myself out of a job. My manager's like, you know that you're going to work yourself out of a job. I'm like, I'm cool with that because this is what really should happen. This is like the actual solution. And this opportunity came up for setting up an entity in Switzerland with Expedia. And I was like, sign me up to that project. I can definitely, I've done international, I know some about international recruiting. I can at least start out helping there. So I got onto that project and because things were like, in constant motion and kind of like, you know, was a constant change. And I had a manager that believed in me. She's amazing. She like gave me the opportunity just to take on more and more responsibility until I found myself kind of being the lead project manager of setting up that entity. Yeah. And so I had the opportunity to set that up and then had the opportunity to be there for three and a half years to provide oversight for that office. Did you ever have a moment, you're like, how did Mindy, who failed at this, failed at this, failed at this, how did I get to Switzerland setting up an Expedia? in the world? What in the world? Like how did this happen? And it was scary, right? Because I had never, you know, when I was in Switzerland, there's a whole bunch of stuff happened that was outside of my control and where, you know, people who were supposed to be doing things ended up being called to other opportunities. And there was a moment, this moment where I got called late at night saying, okay, you and the VP of Finance are going to have to figure all these things out and we don't know the answers and there's a time zone difference. So peace. Good luck to you. And I was like, I don't know Swiss employee law. I don't know all, I don't know how to speak French. I know Greek. And so I'm just like, who am I? Who am I to be here right now? But then I had to go back to all those low moments that we've talked about and say, what did I do back then that helped me get out of that moment where I felt over my head? I didn't know what to do. Once again, it's about asking questions. Who do I know that might know how to do this? Who do I know that might know someone? How do I be resourceful? How do I think outside the box? And I have the VP of Finance. And so it was like all hands on deck. No one knew there was any issues at all. It all went fine. But that was that moment where were high on top and that, yes, that all comes back. And you're like, who am I to be here? Who am I to do this? Then it's like those low moments actually then help you. Yeah. Yeah. Because you're like, wait, wait. So how was Switzerland? You said you lived there for three years. uh My husband left his amazing job to come move with me, which is such a sacrifice for him. It was a huge sacrifice for him because it wasn't easy to find a job for him in Switzerland. He is so amazing, my husband. And it was heaven on earth. It was like a snow globe moment where it's just this like moment. love like using it. It's just like there's nothing like it before, nothing like it after. And it is so much happened in that time that I go back and I just pick up that snow globe and I'm just like, hmm, yeah. Yeah. And it's just like, it's like a touch point. Like it's just this beautiful time that was just, em yeah, you you always wonder what will I think about when this time on earth has ended? What will end? that will be like probably one of the first things. It's like one of the highlights. I think I've put the box even like above some of the other boxes because it is kind of that pinnacle kind of moment um in my life. Mountaintop. Thanks Kim, thanks. well, I guess you didn't stay there. Anything else in there, that time frame? point. had a leadership, you gotta love leadership changes. And anyone comes and talks about their past and they say, yeah, a leadership change happened. And then you're like, and they pause and you're like, well, tell me about that. And they're like, it was interesting. It was interesting. An interesting leader decision. I would not have made that decision myself. And 100%. And it ended early, my assignment ended early Kim, let's just put it that way. can't, so I actually cannot speak about the specifics of what happened. It was a really S word situation though Kim, because me and my husband had thought we'd be, and it was supposed to be a longer duration of time than three and a half years, which is why we made such a big change. But man, that. The yeah, you mean you can just see how much a culture can change with just a person, a couple people. I shouldn't say it was just one person, but there's a couple people. or one person with a couple, I don't care enough to know. Yeah. Yeah. say you're completely off. Yeah. So, and, but you decided not to stay in Switzerland. No, and I was jobless in Switzerland. Being jobless in Switzerland is interesting. Yeah, at least my husband had a job so I was able to stay on, you know, without, because the job is what sponsored your visa. And so because he had a job, I was able to stay. But because I'd been there for three and a half years, I also qualified for unemployment. And their unemployment system, is phenomenal. They like actually give you career coaching. They actually give you a career coach. So I had someone to actually talk to. They like do it right. Like it was phenomenal. It was lovely. It was amazing. It's just that there weren't any, didn't speak, I did improve. I did learn French while I was there, but it wasn't, was at business level one is what I was rated at. And if I hadn't gotten a phone call from a manager that I had worked with back at Microsoft about a job in Austin, I would have probably, they pay for you to go to language school through the unemployment. They pay for you. to go to, and so I was already scheduled to do that. But because both me and my husband had jobs within Austin within five days, we just were like, okay, this is an answer to prayer. And Austin, Texas ain't bad. So, right? I know, I know. We got barbecue and we got great music and it reminded me of the Seattle I grew up in, because it had great culture. And so that's where I, it's Black Bod. is the company and it's just one of those managers that if they call you on the bat phone, you just don't say no to that manager. And she's a dream. She's amazing. And that was an incredible decision. oh And you can't just do one thing, so you also get another job? You go to BlackBod and? I was getting... So BlackBot was really great. It was awesome. But I was like, okay, the work-life balance was so good there. I I came from these very crazy hours at Microsoft and Expedia. And I come to BlackBot, which had this incredible leader that was really about well-being and work-life balance. And I was like, I have too much time on my hands. And I fell in love with wine. never had drank... Switzerland, I didn't drink until I was 30, until I was in Switzerland. And it was... And it's because they have like, you would go to a cafe for a business meeting and it was like McDonald's. You go to McDonald's and you get the Happy Meal. Well, their Happy Meal deals in these cafes would include a small glass of wine. And then everyone's talking about the wine pairing and I'm just like, and it's not like you don't do it. It's like you don't even have a choice. It just comes, it's served. And so I just fell in love with the art and science of winemaking. And so I was like, Then I found out that Texas at that time was the fifth largest grape producing state in the US. once Kim Nerdy Mindy in wine now, I was like, I need a job in this. So I started working on the weekends at a winery and I got a level one wine sommelier certification. Now level one, correct me if I'm wrong, that's like a lot of the regions and what grapes grow where and like the wine making. Yeah. blind tasting yet at that level. eh You start doing that at level two and three. Did you go on to do level two or level three or just you want to? Do know I live in Napa? Oh, I know, Kim. You have offered me that several... I need to come. I've got to come. Maybe we build some type of little HR gathering. Or we could do a little learning Napa HR gathering. I don't know. We could turn it into a business thing. figure something After Black Bod came home away, I was at home away was this interest. So Black Bod also got an interesting leader. Okay, yeah. Bye bye. so I started, I just, know, people started leaving and taking other opportunities. And it's not like I was looking, but once again, someone I had worked with let me know about this opportunity at HomeAway because HomeAway was starting to be acquired at the time. They had just started the process of being acquired by Expedia to be a part of Expedia group. It's now, you know, Verbo. So, HomeAway, And so they were just looking for a chief of staff to kind of help them through a period of time. And they were also going through an agile transformation. And so their whole company is working towards everyone getting into a similar sprint cadence and kind of agile methodology and way of speaking. And so this job at HomeAway, this was a dream team. I've worked with so many dream teams, but this team was amazing. It was so much, I've never had so much fun at work. I've never had so much fun at work. It was so much fun, such challenging, such learning work. It's really where my human centered design and agile work really started to codify and it really helped frame up what I do today. It's like, was pivotal time. It was always meant to be kind of a nine month thing and the leader that hired me because, you know, going through the acquisition ended up going somewhere else. uh which then when my manager, one of my prior managers at BlackBod called me about the SpiceWorks opportunity, that was just a natural segway. Have you ever applied for a job or has it always just been a phone call? applying to jobs before Microsoft and then before Expedia, but yeah. it. It's phenomenal. So you go to Spicework, you become head of people. Yes. And that ahead of people was because um the person who had hired me, she had, it was like a succession, I was a succession plan. And so uh it then ended up getting acquired. just like, it never, I was like, I want to stay here. People are like, why do you, I'm like, I am not job hopping. I like, really, I drew, really would love to stay, but it's like, You know, my leader at HomeAway changed. That was a re- and the work was done. Like he even said, this is really a nine month project if you do it well. And then SpiceWorks was my, you know, my leader moved on. Um, and then it was really great being head of people was awesome, but then we got acquired by a larger company. And, and, and during that, it was really hard because that when SpiceWorks was getting acquired was also at the same time my grandparents passed away and the- And the acquisition, yeah, it was kind of in the same time period that all that was happening. And so it was a really high moment as well as some really difficult personal stuff going on. But I loved being head of people. I got that taste for leadership. And I'm just like, I love this. I never thought I could do it. I never thought I could do it. I never thought I would be able to do that work. So. you hindsight 2020 as it always is? Do you think those were just some limiting beliefs that you held? Yeah. I do. Yeah, 100%. I think they held on from, they were strongly integrated into those past failures. And then SpiceWorks as it was getting acquired, right? Like we, I went through the acquisition, helped get that team stabilized. But when um COVID was literally just happening and like this... um acquired. COVID, no, it was acquired in 2019. It was finishing that and it seeing it was stabilizing the acquisition. But as we're going into the beginning of 2020, I was really starting to, know, it was rumors, right? Plus I had a friend of mine living with me who's a public healthcare worker and she knew about COVID. So I had an insider view, right? It was interesting. Anyways, I started getting people calling me about chief people officer jobs. And so I was like, sure, let's see what that means. ah Now that this acquisition happens, I'm underneath, underneath, underneath, like layers underneath people. And I got a taste for being this head of people. And so when TCP called and that opportunity kind of came through, was all, that interview was the last we were able, it was like the weekend everything was closing down. And so it was like at the heart of COVID. And so that... That was like being like that Chief People Officer at TCP that first year in seven months, it was really building things from scratch because it was a 30 year founder led company that had been acquired by a private equity. And they didn't have an H really like an HR. um They did have HR people, but it wasn't like an industry. It wasn't set up in like it was more transactional, I would say in nature. Exactly. And they didn't even have a system. They were doing it through Salesforce and QuickBooks. So So it was a lot about kind of reshaping and recrafting and building from scratch. And so that was May of 2020. we did, they wanted the private equity company, wanted to grow through acquisition. And the first acquisition they wanted to have planned to do in December of 2020. And so without any system, so we in a very short amount of time had to like roll out and create a lot of foundation and realignment. And we were able to make that acquisition. happened uh successfully, which was really great. Yeah. But after a year and seven months and some very interesting experiences in that organization, it just wasn't a fit. Where they were heading, the CFO and I had different opinions of the focus of the future. he mentioned to me, know, Mindy, your problem is that you care about people. Ooh, that's... but I also care about the business. um But you can't not care about the business and the people. Like you have to do both. You have to do both. And he was like, really Mindy, all I want you to do is maintain payroll and benefits. And I was like, well, you don't need a Chief People Officer then. And so then it was really transitioning away from a Chief People Officer role. And um they didn't backfill the Chief People Officer role. um And they also did some other like kind of interesting restructuring choices. And so that, yeah, you know, so that came to an end uh in a very interesting way as well, which I can't talk about. I hate that there's so many things I can't talk about. And that of course leads you, Mindy, again, to a very low point of. Oh my goodness, I just had to let go. Like I put let go as a first word there because I was holding on to all this emotional weight and I just had to let it go. I had to let go. I had to let go of what I couldn't or see, I'm even using, have to be very careful what I couldn't know is not. I did a lot there. I did a lot of great things, but then of course there's things I couldn't do because they didn't want to, they didn't care about it. And honestly, you were there for a year and seven months. You cannot boil an ocean in that time. can't boil an ocean. And so I had to learn to let go. ah I've been there and it is it's tough. It's like it's like a breakup. It's like losing a friend It is really like a morning activity like uh And two surgeries later. um I was just toxic, so toxic. And counseling, I counseling, I did counseling too. Yeah, yeah, really good. I heard just a lot. You know life just like, know life just like, it felt like everything shattered. It felt like everything I had built up to that point and not just me, like my community had built. Because nothing I've achieved has just been because of me. It's either a team of people, a community of people, because I love to build things with people. It just felt like it was all taken away. It was all shattered and I was left at the bottom. I'm not gonna say alone, because I still had my amazing people. But I just felt bruised, broken, and just like, what the... What did you do? You're welcome to say so many, as many as you want. was like perfectly just like, it was my bottom. It was bottom. I could, dad leaving seemed like a cherry on top. Like this was like, this is, it was really hard. Yeah, what did you do? Leaned on your community. of the times that I first, was so, cause I was just physically also so unhealthy. I had a friend that reached out to me. I love her to this day. She was like, Hey Mindy, I know that you're recovering from that last surgery. I really need some help. She's a founder. uh I just really need some help building out this new feature. And I think you with your experience, I just think you would just really add to that. You know, this is like a prod. She's giving me a purpose. She knew what she was doing. And she's like, I totally understand. You're just, still healing. Are you just laying in bed right now? Yup. Yup. I'm just laying in bed. Do you think you might have some time to be, I really need your help Mindy. I need your expertise. I like. No, I wanna rot. I wanna rot, leave me alone. I was, because I love helping people. And I was like, well, I might be, let's see, let's just see. She's like, well, just try. She even just said, just try, just try, just try, just even an hour, just like, and if you don't like it, you can just let me know. But I'll pay you for the hour. I'm gonna pay you the hour, this is what I can afford. So I was like, I didn't know how to up my computer. But then, It got the brain going and it got my heart rebeating because it was all about help. It was a functionality to help managers because our managers need so much help. And it was all goes back to the purpose of like creating great workplaces and creating meaningful connection. And man, it just freaking it re-sparks that spark. Dang it. Dang it. It like revitalized me. I wasn't left to rot. See, this is people are so good. And it just was like, my goodness, this, I up, love doing this. I'm going to be fine. You what I do might look different, but I'll figure it out. I've always figured it out. That girl that was left at five years old, didn't rot in a pit. She thrived. She thrived. then that's, yep. And then that's kind of where I started interviewing again, taking part-time gigs. Cause people are like, Mindy, like that friend, you have time. I need your expertise. I want you to come help me. Can you come help me? Can you come help me?" And then one of those help me's became like, but our vendor procurement process requires business insurance. I guess you need, do you have an LLC? I'm like, no. But of course, because I want to help my friend, I go do that. So then I had Agilent HR, but I wasn't thinking of myself as a founder. And as I was interviewing, I got hired to be an... an advisor to a company, they hired a different type of chief people officer. But I realized that these interviews were advising sessions, And I really knew that I wanted to work with companies that were between 50 to 500 people. then I was, and you know what, I love talking. You can't shut me up. Here I've been talking for, I'm so sorry. It's been so long. And I love that we're talking about this because I don't think, this is the first time I think I've ever talked about any of this, Kim. I've talked about parts of it, but not to this in depth. And I was on like, I don't even remember, maybe a hacking HR. So hacking HR was some of my early speaking, because Enrique was like, you know, helping build this content. And I loved Enrique. And so I did one of those, I fell in love with it. But then someone introduced me as a founder of Agilent HR. And I'm like, wait, no, who? What founder, huh? That's not me. Right? Yeah, and they're like, well, what's Agile in HR? I was like, yeah, well, I guess I did kind of establish this thing, but like its goal still at the time was to get a full-time job. But I think people saw something in me that I didn't, and then I started to really enjoy the work that I was doing, and it morphed and evolved and changed over time. um that's really really, that's why I put Agile in HR 2.0, because Agile in HR. in September of 2022 on paper, yes, exactly. I stopped interviewing full-time in January 2024. And that's when I really started to own and embrace and stand in my voice. and really just be, mean, yeah, that's when I really found my voice. It was in January 2024. I feel like it was a rebirth. I feel like I'm right behind you in so many parts of your story, but similarly, like I joke that I was forced fractional in December of 2022 when I was laid off and then like finally committed and realized maybe there's something here in April of 2024. And I'm like, oh, we got it. Okay, we can do this. We can do this 2.0. I love it. What's next? What's next? Right? I don't know. I don't know. mean, what's next? And I almost like say, don't know, because I don't think a year ago I would have said I'd be working with Marnie to try out this mastermind or workshop thing, this group thing. And I wouldn't say that my work now is really about, is moved from pure fractional to this interesting Beautiful. don't even have a word for it still, but it's like this like mentor coaching advising blend of walking alongside the current like either HR leader or HR professional like seeking to grow or you know, just wanting to even sometimes rethink how they work and they just need someone outside of their head to be their guide and it's this blend of coaching mentoring and advising and helping them through the work be able to kind of find them. It's almost like It's like being able to be what the community was for me and all these experiences. It's like me being able to take all these crash and burns and now take that to come alongside someone else so that they hopefully have, they don't have to go to the depths that I did. That they don't end up losing their spark. That they are able to stay engaged or find their purpose, their values. and through the work realize I can do this and it can be done differently and that how valuable and the power of HR within the organization and how to be able to tie people, process and systems because those three things are how we do work at work. And we have to think about those three things strategically at the same time in order to be able to find ways to work better. nothing to add. Are you... this is perfect. uh I don't it just like came to me. It's like ah do you feel comfortable in the title founder now? Yeah. because I do feel like I've founded something. Like I feel like it's now, I feel like it is mine. Like I do feel like it's something to, that it is a thing. It feels tangible, I guess, Kim. I guess that's the best word I can find. Yeah. Well, where can people find you if they want to find a founder? uh People can find me on uh AgilentHR.com. I'm starting a new newsletter. So that's also new. there's a I need to share the links. I'm really bad at sharing things. So I need to tell people. I'll share it with you. I need to tell people I'm starting a newsletter. uh It's also a dimension LinkedIn. Yes, they can find me on LinkedIn. Yeah. else in your journey that you want to tell us? Well, mean, Kim, like you and the Fractional People People community have just been such a joy and Els is, I know, I, I don't pronounce her name correctly. Ellis. my goodness, thank you. Like my grandfather went through, my great grandfather went through Ellis Island. my goodness. Okay, now I'm going to remember, cause I always say it wrong. You and Ellis and the Fractional People People community, and I promise I'm not getting paid to say this, have just been... I've been through so many different communities and it is the one that I've stayed with. It's the one that is a true community of care. And it reminds me of my Dutch immigrant community. And it's like a breath of fresh air, isn't it? Like you just go in there and like people are like giving and receiving and helping and supporting and learning and asking for help. And so, mean, I'm getting goosebumps just talking about it. Like I love Fractional People of People and it's been such a joy to connect with you through there, Kim. And I mean, this exercise truly, thank you. This has been a gift for me because it's so good. it is such, I think I mentioned in pre before we started recording that this was such a healing experience for me. um yes. staring at this, you're like, damn, and those failures weren't even my fault. Aw. my goodness, you are such a joy. I mean, I'm not just saying that either. It just has been such a great conversation. I hope other people feel inspired. I think my hope always is that if someone is feeling that they've lost their spark and at the bottom of a very deep pit, their unhealthy thoughts that start to enter and you just, there's always someone. There's always someone and just please. The one thing that there's one, it doesn't feel like you can do anything. The one thing that you can do is just yell help. little letters. We'll come running. ah Mindy, nothing else to add from there. Thank you so much for joining and we'll see y'all next time. thanks.