Featuring: Josh Levine

Josh Levine takes us on a journey from Art School in San Francisco to the bumpy road of being a business owner.

Check out his Journey Line here then go check out Great Mondays here!

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Hello and welcome to Journey Lines, the podcast answering the question, how did they get there? I'm your host Kim Minnick. Each episode, I invite a guest to complete a reflective exercise plotting the key moments of their life against their career and, pardon me, key moments of their life and career against a line of neutrality. Together, we explore the ups, downs, and everything's in between on their journey. Please help me welcome today's guest, Josh Levine. Josh, how are you? Hi, Kim. I'm good. Thank you so much for having me on or asking me to do it. It was a nice, nice opportunity to reflect, reflect on my on my life's journey, as you call it. I am just so excited. For those who don't know, Josh had me on his podcast and it was one of my first podcasts, if not the first one. So it's... being a guest on on great Mondays radio. Yes, thank you for coming on. It was very enlightening. It was so much fun, and almost a year later, here we are again. So in addition to Great Monday's radio, tell me what you're up to these days, personally, professionally, holistically. Personally, we are dealing with a bunch of teenagers in our house. My son is a senior and so we're getting through the kind of college application and emotional struggles that are around that. I have twin girls, which we'll talk about on the journey and they are 15 and eighth grade and seeing them grow a lot. you know, it's a lot of fun. I'm definitely kind of like, man, I can kind of see the end of like when the kids leave. And so I'm like enjoying, really trying to enjoy every moment, honestly. So that's very busy, but I love it. I love a busy house. Personally, so that's personal. Professional. Last year was a bit of a bunk year, but this year is kicking off, or next year, 2025 is kicking off pretty strong. Just landed in a really nice client. I'll be very busy for Q1. And we can talk about what that might be if it's relevant, but I'm very happy. It's kind of the ups and downs of being an entrepreneur. So that's what that will get into as well. Holistically, just trying to stay. I'm well and healthy as I get a little older. I'm almost a couple years out from 50, but closing in fast. joints don't, joints don't work the way that they used to. And so I've got a bum shoulder and my knees kind of tweaky. it's, but I, you know, I'm doing my best to kind of keep it up and keep it active. So. I feel you, I feel you. I am closing in on 40 myself and just now I'm like, wait a second, things are a little different than they were 20 years ago. I can't quite do it and I can't quite do it the way I used to. Fair enough. Well, Josh, I have got your journey line in front of me. And for those joining us on YouTube, you should see it on your screen. If you're listening into the podcast, check the show notes. This is the first hand-drawn journey line. Absolutely gorgeous. And I would love for you to kick us off at your move to San Francisco for art school, obviously. yes. Yes, yes, Well, I spent before my I actually went to I got an undergrad from from Tufts University right outside of Boston. And during that time, my senior year, I before my senior year, I moved to San Francisco and took some digital design classes, kind of spent my summer just like exploring that opportunity. I really enjoyed it. and decided I wanted to come back after I graduated. I attended or got into the Academy of Art University and studied graphic design. So I kind of came in looking to, you know, exploring graphic design as an opportunity. was a really, really great program. It was awesome because I didn't have much of a portfolio. And so Academy of Art, like if you are willing to, you know, pay, pay the tuition, they'll let you in. But with the graphic design program, it was really rigorous. So a lot of people dropped out. So it was a great opportunity for me to kind of get in, get my get my act together, which I didn't have really. And then kind of, I just decided I want to get real serious about it. So I just dug in and studied for you know, did design full time for two ish two and a half years. I got a BFA in graphic design and yeah, it a pretty wonderful time in my career and really, I can reflect that my, was a little older, a little more mature and a little more able to commit to it because I kind of didn't, my first degree, was like, whatever, B's C's, didn't really care. But then I was like, I really care about this. So that's how I got to San Francisco. I lived in San Francisco for five years, one of my favorite cities. I found it very hard to get my act together there, because it's so fun. There's so much going on. I was there 2015 to 2020. I'm curious, how was your experience in San Francisco? yeah, it was, so I moved in 99. So that was right, right when, sort of right before that kind of the first.com bubble. it was like, everything was really like changing very rapidly, but I didn't know, cause I wasn't, I hadn't been there and I was also changing really rapidly and everything was new. hadn't lived in a city like that. I, I met my wife, pretty quickly after I moved there. And so it was a lot of fun to kind of grow up and explore with kind of having a fun partner. I lived in North Beach up on a big hill and it was really wonderful. And she was on Haight Street and the only way I'd get around the city was biking. And so I would just bike over there or. bike back and it was, it was a lot of, it was a lot of fun. Yeah. Definitely saw a lot of good shows and the whole DJ scene and late nights. And it was, it was, it was good. It was a good time. I started going to raise well before I was in San Francisco, but yes, absolutely. We, would do that at least once a year in Boston for sure. And even before when I grew up in, I grew up in central Florida and there were raves and we would go, I was definitely first in on that. was like, this is amazing. This is so my jam. I too grew up in central Florida and did not catch a rave scene at any time. I think I was not cool enough to be honest with you. hmm. Yeah, well, you're a little younger than me and so maybe moved on, but there was a lot downtown Orlando. A big kind of crazy underground scene, if you can believe it. I have a lot of interesting memories of downtown Orlando. All good, you know, another time, all fair. So you've been in San Francisco, full-time art, full-time student. You mentioned biking across the city, which maybe I'm skipping too quickly, but the low, a low part of your journey line is a biking accident. Yeah, yeah. So I actually raced bikes in college and moved out to San Francisco was pretty heavily into the just doing a lot of biking. I had like a couple bikes in a very small apartment. It was kind of it was part of my identity, I would say. So I was just doing all that a lot across the bridge. I mean, it's a wonderful city to bike in the bike up to Marin and all that. I like trail biking or all on roads? road biking, mostly road biking. Yeah. So I did triathlons. I did road biking. It was yeah, that was that was kind of my jam. do these big, big rides and on the weekends and, know, just kind of all over the city. That was how I got around. I just was totally 100 percent like this is who I am. I'm a cyclist. That is terrifying to me. I didn't know how to ride a bike when I lived in San Francisco, and I would see people riding bikes in the traffic with Muni, with the public transit. That is an identity to hold. Yeah, for sure. I definitely was. well, I was really confident on the bike. mean, I just, I, you know, I just had a lot of great bike handling skills. And so I never, I never bid it on the, on the, you know, the tracks, the train tracks that are on the road never did that, which I know it happens, but I don't know. I just was able to, I definitely some close calls and some dumb things. but what's interesting is the lowest point on my. On my map here is this big bike accident that happened when I was in school. So I went down to, it actually didn't happen in San Francisco, it happened in LA. I went with, my wife is from LA and so we went down to visit with some friends of ours. We stayed at her parents' house and I went mountain biking with her brother who lived down there and so, and a friend, our sort of mutual friend. And we went. up into the hills and, you know, aforementioned kind of like great, you know, a lot of confidence, great bike handling skills. And we went up the mountain and then we were coming down the mountain. I was just, you know, bombing the trails and I didn't, I don't, I did not intend to hit a jump, but I guess I did. I didn't see it coming. And the last thing I remember is the, actually the apex of my kind of launch into the air, do like I have a flash sort of one of those movie moments where you're like, I'm, I'm well off the ground and not on my bike. And then the next thing I know, I wake myself up moaning. And so my brother-in-law went down the hill, you know, we didn't have mobile phones at the time. So he was knocking on doors asking, you know, looking for someone that was home and call a call an ambulance and actually then I got helicoptered out. I had, he had seen me hit the ground. had a seizure, and was basically just kind of like, you know, out. so he was sure that I was like, probably dead, but if not very, very deeply injured. so, I got, there was a, yeah, I was up in the mountains. There was no, like, they couldn't come up with a, an ambulance. there's the medevac came. rushed me to the hospital. I was covered in dirt. And then I was in the hospital for like two or two days. Everybody, everybody came my parents flew in from Florida, like every all my my one of my best friends lived in LA at the time he came and visit me in the hospital and like we had our good friends were nurses, they were down with us. And so they were in checking on me and like I got I got a sponge bath and all that stuff. But what was interesting Yeah, no, was rough. So what was interesting was... I didn't break anything, surprisingly. I had been doing, I guess, connecting back to our banter at the beginning, I had been doing a lot of yoga and I had worked really, done a lot of deep backward bending. we kind of have this story that it was, that was the the reason why I didn't break my back, you know, like, or, you know, whatever, I didn't break anything, I'm serious. And so I was completely mobile. Now, my head on the other hand was, was another thing. I mean, I was pretty shaken up for about six months. I was not 100 % me for about six months. And it took a long time to kind of I mean, six months is a long time. took a long time to kind of recover in that way. But, it was, it was scary. It really, you know, it definitely changed my kind of approach to biking and my outlook and, all that stuff. I look back the sort of confluence of those two things, the art school and the bike accident. was this, I was so like motivated, driven to do well in design school that I had my girlfriend, now wife, at the time get my sketchbook and I'm like, I gotta like work on this project. gotta like, you know, this was like a serious class that was like typography three or whatever. And it was like a tough teacher. I was like, and I think back now and I'm like, my God, like what an idiot. Like I was trying to like, I get it. I can, I remember who I was at the time and I understand that, but like. gosh, I just was so driven that I couldn't see how serious it was. And I didn't have the ability to kind of take off that time and relieve myself of that kind of burden because I was so driven. that I think was an interesting, you know. Moment I don't know that I learned anything from it. It just sort of like reflecting where I was in the at the moment, right? How intense everything was I guess I feel like throwing yourself into work, school, external things is such a typical response to a traumatic event. Perhaps there's some of that in there. I'm curious, how long did it take you to get back on a bike? that's a good question. Do you remember? No, I mean, I was pretty, I think, I don't remember that being problematic, because that's how I got around. I actually wasn't, because it's not like it happened on the road in San Francisco, right? It was like off road. I didn't have any control over it. I, it was just a different scene, right? Like it wasn't like, you're being an asshole on the road. Like it really had nothing, like I just. Of course, I was like biking very aggressively down, but I didn't see it. didn't. The Muslim like, want to take this jump. And then, you know, it was just something that happened. Well, you came out of it, it sounds like, even though maybe hindsight 2020, not as great as you would have liked to, taking some more time for recovery. But then things start, the dedication to school looks like it takes like bit of an upswing to getting hired by a niche, famous designer. Tell me everything. Okay. Well, being a fairly gregarious extrovert in the design community, was a student rep within the AIGA, which is the Professional Graphic Design Association. And so I had a pretty big presence and during portfolio day. was sort of helping run portfolio day. got some attention from... I first got introduced to Marty Neumeyer, who is a pretty famous graphic designer, pretty famous person in the graphic design world. was in Silicon Valley when Netflix first came, not Netflix, sorry, Netscape first came out. And so he was on the team that built that brand and came up with the identity system for that and then became this like the go-to guy for software packages. So any software package that you bought in the 90s, probably his agency designed it and then launched a really amazing short-lived graphic design magazine called Critique. And then when that folded, started a brand strategy firm. So he spotted me and invited me to show my portfolio and he wanted to look through it. Not immediately out of school, but when time was right, when he sort of got his strategy firm brand, he launched a brand strategy firm and decided to hire me as kind of his first kind of maybe design protege. I was hired as a designer, right? young, you know, hungry, you know, designer who's willing to absorb everything, right? And so that was, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. so that was, that was really my first real, real job. I, it was an interesting choice. I mean, it was definitely exposure to a lot of things and what I think was most influential. mean, yes, I studied, you know, it's like, learn design underneath him. And you can even see in some of my designs now, it sort of still feels very Neumeyer-esque. And so I carry that with me. you know, it was the deliverables weren't graphic design, the deliverables were brand strategy. And that was where I really started to kind of go, in, in San Francisco, you can throw a rock and hit like an amazing graphic designer. But I had a unique set of skills to be able to facilitate leaders and work do workshops and be able to think strategically beyond just the design. that was that sort of propelled me in that direction of like moving towards thinking of myself as a strategist, as a brand strategist, and not necessarily a graphic designer. Because I am a good graphic designer, but there were some like I would have dinner and drinks with some of the world's best graphic designers. you know, it was like, you just run into them, I knew them. I would never be that, you know what I mean? Like these people were so, so talented. And I just thought, I have something more unique to offer. And so that was kind of the direction I started to think about. And, you know, I started to learn to write more professionally. I didn't have a great writing education growing up, central Florida. And so, yeah. We learned wrong things. Yeah, we learned the wrong things. He wrote a few books while I was there. I got to learn from him, from Marty around how he wrote and what he thought about. And I started to write that as well. And I still credit the style of how I wrote my book and how I continue to write today to learning under Marty. So you mentioned growing beyond a graphic designer into this brand strategist, this skill of leadership facilitation. Was that something you happened upon during this journey, or was it something that you were bringing into this role from just another world? Well, think he yeah, I mean, I did a lot of improv and and and acting growing up. And that was kind of my extroverted capacity. Like I really like I'm very good at reading a room. I can really like be able to bring people along. Improv is one of the hardest, hardest skills to learn. It is it's it is all parts of your brain lighting up at the same time and so I brought that to the table. think that was why part of the reason he hired me, because he had a vision of be doing a lot of these workshops and I can facilitate that. I didn't think, I mean, I knew that that was going to be one of my skills, but I didn't know how I was going to apply it. So that I would say the answer is a little bit. I kind of had that skill a little bit, but I didn't know exactly how I was going to apply it. It's interesting you bring in improv. I find that time and time again folks were like, yeah, oddly enough, improv really helped me. I think that's actually a skill that benefits such a large swath of professionals. I think about it like, you know, there's that story about learning a musical instrument is like a whole new language in it, connects, you know, create these amazing connections that you never had before or whatever it is. Like improv is like that. It's just a whole nother part of your brain that reality doesn't exist on the stage and you get to make it up. And it's like, It's such a hard switch to make. You're like, no, I could make anything happen. it's, there's so many things that I learned from doing improv for so many years. I did it in central Florida. Actually studied the person that I studied with. One of the most famous people I studied with is Wayne Brady. So that was, there you go. So he was in, yeah. So he was at SAC theater in downtown Orlando. and I studied with Jonathan Magnan, Magnan, who's, is the host of, think, let's make a deal now. So those are all my teachers. Those are the folks that I learned under, and then came out to San Francisco and found, there's Bay area theater sports. And so I did a bunch of improv with them. And then I started, there was a group that I, did a very specific kind of improv and we would do it at a bar once a month. And it was, it was, it was quite a thing for a while. That was my. early San Francisco career. I love that and I love the you you talked about a different reality I love the yes and that comes with you know, I think it's improv 101 yes and Because so many of us are conditioned to say no but or me way and I think that yes and really does open up the leadership facilitation that you were talking about so everything ensuring people are like, like letting them be successful, right? so everything's going great. Sounds like you're crushing it. And you continue this upswing and you get married and have your first kid. did. you know, I like I said, I met my wife in 99. We got married in 2003. And then had our first kid at 2007. So that's what that was all kind of within that timeframe of, you know, moving to San Francisco through that period. My wife is the reason why I met her and the story that we tell is that she, my dad and her dad were friends in high school. So they both grew up in Long Island and they were in a rock and roll band together. So my dad would played guitar and sang and her dad was on the drums and we have stories and they've just been friends forever. So the way that we met is when I moved out to San Francisco, my parents came to visit and they're like, your dad's friend Danny is out here and let's go to dinner. And then we were over there and then his daughter called and it was like, hey, the Levines are here. Why don't you come over for dinner? And that's how I And so we're, you know, we sort of come from the same shtetl as you would say, right? Like that's, and so we had a lot of, a lot a lot in common, right? They're like, our families come from, even though we were raised in different places, right? It was a very similar experience. And yeah, so we live in San Francisco and had our first kid, a boy, and It was kind of, I mean, it was amazing because it was like this teeny little apartment, you know, it's kind of the, yeah, the sort of like, yeah, it was like the kind of like, you know, again, like San Francisco apartment and it was sort of right. It was in cold valley and, know, it's sort of this like little fun little thing. And, you know, was, it was a really wonderful time. And it sounds lovely. I remember when I was living in San Francisco, I had friends who would have babies and they're like, yeah, we put the crib in the closet because that's, it's fine. It's great. But as highs go, they don't remain forever. And there's a a quick sharp downward. You left your job the day the market crashed. I was graduating school around this time. Awesome. 2008, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 2008 and not a great time for job hunting. So as a new grad, I had an experience, but you as a established professional, you've left your job. Why? What happened? Yeah, well, it I had been there for six and a half years and it was like the same thing. And I kind of was, I was getting bored and having that kid. was, you know, it's like having now having a son. like, what am I doing here? Like it really made me reflect on like the BS of just sort of being at work. And I was like, I don't know. It's the same project over and over again. We're having the same thing. And I'm like, I think it's time to go. And I continue to network, right? was part of this graphic design association. I had a lot of contacts and felt very confident that I could get another job. So actually, what was interesting about the arrangement is, you know, it wasn't urgent, but I, so I was like, I'm gonna leave. And so Marty and I agreed, let's all go in six months, we'll have, you know, plenty of time. So it's like, I know that there's like the two week notice, but like, I was like, yeah, it's fine. We can, you know, I'll look for work and that'll make sense. And then I'll plan makes a lot of sense. right? So I'm out doing, I'm out doing interviews, I'm out doing all these things, da da da. And feeling pretty confident. Got a, you know, sort of conditional offers or like loose offers, like, yeah, definitely. And you know, with a package design agency in Berkeley, and then digital design firm in San Francisco, that was hot, you know, hot shit. And it was, I was pretty, you know, I was like, all right, good. And so six months came and at a couple offers, nothing I hadn't accepted anything, nothing was formal, but like, I some good options, like three solid options. And it was almost to the day that I left that essentially the housing bubble totally collapsed. And I didn't realize how serious it was until all of the, all of those contacts were like, yeah, we're going to wait six months to see what happens because this is a lot. And so all of a sudden I was like, uh-oh. I don't have a job. I have a new kid, you know, a year old, we had just moved to Berkeley. My wife had had been, you know, staying home with the, you know, with Lucas and, and she wasn't she wasn't in the workforce at that point. And it wasn't easy. He wasn't like, she'll just go back to work. So was like, I gotta do something. And so That was like a really big turning point. And depending on, this is sort of the genesis of kind of my turn towards doing culture work is this opportunity of like, I left, I had this big gap. And what I like to describe is that I didn't, know, it's like, because there were no job. listings that I was applying for, right? Like, design, you senior designer or design strategist or brand strategist or whatever. And here are the things that you do. It was like, I turn from like, I had this six month period where I went from like, job search to like soul search. And it was this moment of, what do want to do with my life? And I, I didn't, you know, I sort of had this a lot of space and time to like, think about it because it was there was no external forces saying you can fit in, we will pay you to do this thing. And that was the six months that I started to kind of like this seed of an idea started to germinate and realized that we had done the of all the work that I had done at Marty's company, the stuff that we had done for clients internally, brand work internally was sort of the most interesting and had the most impact. And I was very, I, I thought a lot about, at the time, one of my sort of corporate crushes was this company called Stony Yamashita partners or S Y P and they were sort of this executive leadership. transformation company with a strong design vision. And I was like, that is, that is like, it just stuck in my head. I was like, that's totally what I want to do. And so modeled this idea on like, how do we help? Like a lot of the organizations that we had built these brand promises for couldn't deliver on them. So how do you help them deliver on these brand promises? And so it was this idea of working internally. And I didn't know what it was, be, what it would be called, right? Like now we kind of know the terminology as, you know, organizational culture. But at that point, I was like internal branding or employer branding or employee brand, I don't know, whatever it is. And that was kind of that's when I started thinking about it. And once those ideas kind of came together, I remember I was running along College Avenue in Berkeley, where I where I lived, and this idea of this concept of Great Mondays. popped into my head and I was like, my gosh, that's the name. That's it. That's the name of what I'm going to be doing. Like that's the company. I was going to start a company. was start consulting. and that's what I wanted to kind of stretch towards. So that's how, that's kind of how it started. now truth, truth be told all that time that the six months, and then even after I sort of bought the domain and all that, I was still doing brand strategy work. That was the work that people wanted. It was during that year after I left, 2008, 2009, that Mari actually closed his business and left town. He moved away and ended up going to work for another big agency, which we'll feature shortly. Liquid Agency in San Jose was a big... design brand and design firm that he went and did some work for. But because he left that gap in the market and I was sort of like the guy who had been near him most, a lot of the folks in the design community that needed a brand strategist would call me. And of course I didn't have any work. So I was going to do that. You know, like that was what I was going to be doing. Yeah. like your story you're telling in, you know, at that timeframe, so many people are going through the same thing right now. I thought I had a job lined up, the market changed, I lost it. I started patchworking things together to create this great idea. Like, is that how this all started? Yeah, that's exactly right. Like I just did a bunch of brand strategy work one off projects for different design firms and agencies that I knew, right? Like I knew all those people from being involved in the AIGA and just being a loud mouth. And you know, it's like I just there were folks that just called me and I got to do some really, really fun, interesting projects. And that was along the way. so Great Mondays was this concept that I wanted to kind of grow towards what I learned was culture. And so I would go out and tell people, you know, I am, this is what I do. I work on, design company culture and people looked at me strangely and they would sometimes they'd be like, what do mean? Like, like ballet? what culture, what does that mean? Art? And it was really strange. I was like, I got so much clarity from my point of view, but everybody else did. Nobody had any idea what that meant, literally. And that was such a surprising and depressing fact that I, you know, it was just so I was like, my God. And so I just continued to do brand strategy, brand work, brand strategy work as I as it as I as I could get it, you know, was like, I'll do anything, right? Like, I have a job, like, whatever you need your shoes shine. Great. If I have a couple hours, I'll do it. And that kind of that that ethos has continued with me as an entrepreneur, I, you know, it's like, if I don't have enough culture work, and the opportunity shows up, I'll do I'll do design work, we'll do brand work. It's, it's, you know, something I can do. to good work, like sure. it's fine. Right. And I knew that that was going to be part of the kind of success of or the way that I was going to cobble this together because it's so hard being a solarpreneur as they call them. Self employed. Yep. So you start great Mondays and you just keep on this upswing. Yep, yep. was, it was, you know, I guess in name only, because I wasn't really doing culture work because nobody knew what it was. But I started talking about it and started looking into it and researching and studying this idea. And I just, you know, it was this like, I was convinced that it was the thing to do. Like I was, I was just so, I was like, this is for me, like, I just want to help people do have better lives through work. Like that's, I just believed in the power of business and and capitalism and the opportunity to help people have find more meaning at the places where they spend the majority of their waking hours. And that was a really important thing. And so it wasn't just like, here's, just going to make some money this way. was like my commitment to this. was like, this is what I'm doing for the rest of my life. So you thought, but you were hired away, it seems. Well, I had done too good of a job of kind of marketing myself. And so that agent. doing your own brand strategy? Or you just like amazing? So Liquid Agency, where my former boss, Marty Neumeyer went, wanted to start an employer brand department. I had just started getting Great Mondays rolling and we were starting to move in the right direction and had a series of clients. And then the owner at the time basically was like, just would not, I was like, I don't know. I was like, I don't know if I want to join. was like, things are starting to go. And like, he would just come after me. He was like, I think you should come, think you should come, I you should come. And just, you know, made me an offer that was really hard to refuse, right? It was a lot of money. And I was like, all right, fine. Turns out I do have a price. Exactly. I was like, okay, sure, sure. So I went in. Yeah. Were you like, I'll just put this on the shelf, I'll work on it on weekends? What were you going through? Yeah, I mean, I don't know that I had any live projects. Like if I had anything, I would just kind of like it wasn't so much where I was like, my gosh, when am going to do all this work? It was, you know, it wasn't. But, you know, it was it was a little bit, but it was the decision was no until it was yes. Like that's what I could tell you. You know, it was like I just did not. I was like, I don't know. I was kind of working like I didn't think it was like, of course. a year before it would have been like I was looking for a freaking job. Where were you? Right? Like, now I'm like, I don't know, I just put all this effort into building this thing. And I'm getting some traction. So I was like, I don't think so. Like it was really like it was a great negotiating tactic, but tactic but it wasn't it was just like, I don't I don't know. But then you know, it's it's nice to be wanted. And it was a lot of money. So I was like, all right, I'll give it a shot. How was it? terrible. It was really bad. You know, I was really young at the time. I mean, very inexperienced. I mean, I think I probably came off as more mature, like, you know, the the CEO was like, you're running your own business. And it's like, you know how to run up, you know, PNL and all that stuff. And I'm like, Yeah, I'm like, well, at that time, I was like, Yeah, of course I do. You know, I didn't have any self awareness about that at all. Right? It was like, yeah. Absolutely, what you see is what I see, you know, of course, that's the validation. And it, it, just didn't know enough. I didn't, I hadn't worked in an, mean, I worked for a long time in an agency, but it was a very small agency. was like 10, 12 people. And this was like 60 multiple offices. I think at some point it grew to like, more than a hundred people and they'd big clients and all this stuff. like every pitch that I got involved in, we lost. I take ownership of some of that, but it wasn't entirely my, I don't think it was my fault. I think they ran it poorly as well, but I just wasn't successful. wasn't able to bring in any enough work and they lost just like any other agency, you know, it's like it's ups and downs and they lost some big clients. And then we, then they were like, you're too expensive. And so after it was like, three months, it wasn't six months, right? It was not even six months. was, they graciously like the conversation, right? He had said, the owner had said, know I made you, you know, I wanted you to do this. So he was able to pay me a nice severance package where it was like over a few months and kind of reducing it a little by little. And so I continued to get money, which was had like a ramp off period. down off ramp, which was very kind and appreciate that. I wasn't ready. Doesn't feel great to be fired. I wasn't ready. They weren't ready. The market wasn't ready. That's I mean, those like I have my I own my part of that for sure. I can see that. I don't think they were ready, although they did hire somebody who's still there to this day. who also had a small agency, whose agency was also in debt, right? I was like, took some solace in like figuring that out. was like, it's not like anybody else is doing any better, but he's still there. So I guess he's doing a good job. But it was also, I don't think the market was ready for it. just, it didn't feel like it was necessary or desired yet. And so, I don't know. It was, I really, the, of the things that I want to pass along to my kids is when you graduate, like go work for a big company because you make, you meet a lot of people and those are the people that, you know, you're going to find people that you really connect with. And I, there were a number of people that I met and one in particular at that time, was this amazing executive project manager, client services person. after that, when I got fired and then had the opportunity to pitch on a big project, and I asked her to be part of it. that was because I didn't know what the hell I was doing either, right? Like, I don't like I was too young to start my own business. I was really too young. But I just it And I just made mistakes, you know, like different mistakes all the time, sometimes the same mistake. But to have her along was really great. And we did a bunch of projects together. So that was I mean, there was a lot of benefits to being at that firm, even for three or four months. I still think she's, you know, amazing. And I just she's she's she's a wonderful person, friend and also like really helped me. get that land that first big project and it was so great, right? So it really kind of spurred the next phase of Great Mondays, even though I got fired. which is great because right after you get fired, you get, I'm assuming this is about 15 years ago, you get a fun little double trouble surprise. So my wife was pregnant with what we thought was our second kid. But in fact, we learned a little later than we should have that it was the second and third. we had, she was pregnant. Well, usually you find out during the first ultrasound, which is, I don't know, like two or two months, three months in. And it was the, it was the second ultrasound, which is like more like three months more, three or four. And so it was, you I grew up with you kind of emulate what you have, right? I grew up with a sibling. My wife grew up a sibling. So we were just gonna have two kids. And then all of a sudden, it was three kids. And it was like, just another mind bender, right? Just like, what the f- like just, my God, I was like, we're gonna need a freaking minivan. like, we're gonna have to like, and we had, we had moved from that single, that single, you know, one and a half bedroom apartment in San Francisco out to Berkeley. And it was two bedrooms, 1000 square feet. So it was a little more, but not that much more. And so three kids, one bathroom, and you know, it was like, it was really tight. But it was a wonderful time to, you know, just like, it was exhausting. It was so traumatizing, the whole thing. I would not recommend it. But we survived, but that was kinda it. Like with our first kid, you're like, you're gonna, like, you sort of had that, like, there's that kind of dialogue. You're like, your first kid, your second kid, your third kid, you're the first kid, you're like, I'm gonna home make all of the natural foods. then, but. But by the second, you know, the twins, was like, I would come back from the park with them. My wife would be like, you lost, you know, there's like, we're missing a blanket. You left the lunchbox. And I was like, are the children here? Are they alive? That's it. Like that was basically, that's all I could handle. That was all like, it's just, and they were pretty robust little babies, which means that they were, they could unbuckle themselves from the car seats. They could run. easily come out of the the the stroller. We lived on I mentioned this before College Avenue, which is a pretty busy street that leads right up to UC Berkeley. He lived right on it. And they would we would, they would lock they would go and boost one would boost the other up and undo the multiple locks the chain lock and then the bolt and run out on this run out the door. naked down the street. like we are still, I was still traumatized from this whole thing, but it was like, just so outrageous the, the, the shenanigans, the absolute shenanigans that these kids caused. And it was the other thing I will tell you if, if you don't have any twins in, in, in your life, if, if there's folks that are listening, don't have twins. or know people who have twins. It's not just that you have twice as much work. It's, it's, it is sort of like it's an exponential. It's not just one and then another because then there's a third entity, which is them together. So it's three times as much work. It's, it's insane. And, and we have our older kid. Did you sleep during, I don't know, these years? barely, but I slept more than my wife. but yes, I slept a little bit. we, her mom would come up on, on weekends from LA and, but, man, it was, it was a, it was a lot. I'm glad you survived. It sounds like they're still doing well. And back then, it looks like your business was doing well as you were reveling in your genius and lots of clients. Your brand strategy is rocking it. right. Exactly. So at that point, all of a sudden we're super busy and like I've got like four and like then there's another client once I'm like, I'm like, I get to charge more money. So it's like, if I'm going to take this, it's like, and so I was like, I've got a bunch of people working for me. No one's full time. I don't think at that point I have had a full time employee a few times during this, during my business. career, but mostly everybody's contractors and we're just cooking. We've got a bunch of work from, we did a lot of work for Red Hat. That was our first big client and we continued to do amazing work for them, brand strategy work. And so we'd get at least one big project a year from them and then just other tech groups and you know, just pretty much nothing at that point, nothing culture related, but shortly thereafter, some culture work would start to kind of percolate. so we started and then happened to, I don't know, we just got some traction somehow. And I would get these inbounds for values work. People were always asking him, can you help us with our values? And we were just doing a ton of work. And as I sort of have written on my journey map, have this little little like speech bubble and it's like, I'm a genius. And I was like, I knew it. I knew it. Awesome. Were you a better business owner this time around? Or just sheer genius? well, that genius was, would be short-lived, but, you know, it's when things are going the right direction and everything, everything's working. mean, I, know, I, I think I'm learning little by little. I don't think it was a step change. Like I'm so much better, but I did have six, like I did. During that period, I had enough work that I kind of developed my theories around and my processes around how to get this kind of massive change to be adopted inside of client organizations. So I did some work for Credit Karma. That was our first big values project. And it didn't stick because it wasn't quite right because we only worked with the executive team. And from then on, I... developed this idea, I articulate in the book, my book, also called Great Mondays, the idea of soliciting culture champions. And those folks, those are the ones that can help create that, do the work that the executive team would nominate. And then they're the ones that present the ideas. And by getting, doing that kind of process, you're able to get people to buy in. and get that change adopted. And so that was the time period when I sort of had these, had these some, you know, like modest wins and some, some failures and then kind of learning through that, how to, how to really get this to work. And so I was like, it's, it's, it's on the upswing. There's no, like, it's, it is, it is peaches and cream as far as you can see, it'll never be any different. I'll always have plenty of clients. I've cracked the nut. That's it. I'm a genius. until as the pendulum swings. You know, it's funny, I feel like that happens. take a, feeling so high and then the riverbed dries up, you have no clients and per your bubble, that thought, I am a failure just comes up. no clients. So all of a sudden, right? It's like what I thought was my genius turns out it was just kind of market timing or whatever. And like, then there's nothing and then you have zero clients. And what's amazing and terrifying about being a small business is one great client and you're able to stay open. But But terrible is that it's a very fragile business because that one client goes away and you're done for. and feels like you're walking on a knife edge. Exactly. And so it was like, it just at that period, it was just sort of like, all of these opportunities that I had in the funnel just went away. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. I think I could have done a better job pitching some of those. know I lost some of those because I felt a little, I was like, right. Like I was like, on the like, yeah, we got this. Like, I know, I'm the guy, like, I'm the only person you can come to. So I think I came across on a couple pitches to too big for my britches, I don't think they wanted to work with me. I realized that pretty quickly. So maybe I could have changed, like I said, if I had just won one of those, maybe it would have been okay. But what did save me that sort of first downturn that I experienced as a business owner was that I had taken equity in a startup that I did some work for. And we got, it wasn't all equity, but I did some. And that was the first time I, I'd only done that. I've only ever done that once. but I had this opportunity and so I was able to, they got acquired. so, 18 months after we had gotten our final check and been done, whatever they got acquired by, IBM. And so then. Yeah. And so. you know, actually, windfall, right, literally the definition of a windfall. And that helped the business kind of make it through that downturn that the whatever it was, I don't know, was it 12 months, nine to 12 months of just nothingness. And so that, that was that was amazing to have that. do you take that windfall and move on up to, to, PDX, Portland? Portland is PDX, Portland's BDX, yeah. Well, yeah, so it's what I don't, I sort of compress this timeline. So this, I'm a genius, I'm a failure actually happened twice before we moved to Portland. So I sort of amalgamated two of the ups and downs. But it's the same, but I'm telling you, it's the same, like it just, it's so immersive. It's so, I don't know, that's not the right word. You're so immersed in the success that you just, even though I know, right, like intellectually I was like, well, it wasn't, I didn't, it wasn't my fault that I was amazing, you I all these clients and it wasn't my fault that they went all away entirely, right? The next time I was like, I swear, I was amazing, I'm genius. It's like, it's totally the, it's gonna work out this time. Now I have a book, everybody knows who I am. Da, da, da, da, da, da, But, The same thing happened again. This was in 2019, was the second time this downturn happened. And all of the, I had like six possible clients that either re-up or whatever, and then just one by one, I saw them sort of like kind of drift away. And I was like, ooh, this sounds familiar. was like one went away, two went away, three. I was like, shit. Like, and I knew it was coming. I was like, I guarantee you those. the last three, they're going. Like it just was exactly the same pattern. So I condensed those two things. And so before I moved to Portland, I had closed up my office in Berkeley. We didn't know, this was before the pandemic, right? It was 2019. So I had 2020 also was a big downturn for me. Well, here's the thing is that it happened 2019 and into 2020 before the pandemic and actually had. one more big project with Red Hat that came in that saved me during the pandemic. And I just took it my own. didn't have anybody else. I was able to pay off some debt. so it was, I had basically, I was like, all right, I'm closing up Great Mondays. And once I had sort of let that go, I don't know if you want to be, you know, sort of like astrological or, you know, energetic about it. But it was like, once, once I said, I'm okay, like I'm okay going to get a job. I'm okay doing, you know, doing something else. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna let it go and see what comes up. That project came in and that was wonderful. That was a wonderful opportunity. it was the last project I did for Red Hat. I probably didn't do it as well as if I had one of my, you know, best strategists on it, but I didn't have the opportunity at that point. Like I needed to get, I needed to take all that money. So. It was a trade off. I thought I was going to do a good enough job. I think it was good, I don't, I mean, whatever. haven't, we haven't had any work since then, which I think means that I've kind of used up all of that karma over there, good energy. But whatever, it did its job. And then that rolled into another big, big project. And that allowed us to talk about moving to Portland. So during the pandemic or a year into the pandemic, was sort of like all the strings had been cut. You could work from anywhere. And we had just gone through, lived at that point, we had moved to the Oakland Hills and it was a wonderful little, it was very rural, totally cute, no sidewalks, of like old school neighborhood. It was a beautiful view. And, but then there was a very, very tough fire season and, and that was really, that was really scary. We had a couple really close, high fire events and that got scary. And so after that season, my wife was like, I think we should move. And I was like, great. We'll move somewhere in the Bay area. And we started looking around and she was like, what if we move somewhere else? And we started looking at housing prices in other cities and we're like, okay, we always wanted to move up. to the Pacific Northwest and this was the time to do it. so after obviously months of back and forth, was, just like, that's, I mean, we looked at other cities, it was, Portland was sort of pretty quickly our kind of number one choice. And so we picked up and moved. I had the opportunity to continue to do work from afar and it was, all the kids were sort of transitioning into, my son was gonna be, just finished eighth grade. So it was going into ninth grade. The girls were just going into going to fifth, fourth or fifth grade. and so we just decided to do it and we got really lucky and we were able to sell our house at the peak of the Bay Area market and pay off a bunch of, you know, home equity debt that we use during the downturn and then was able to get a place up here. And it's, it's, it was a, it's a, it was a great move. It was a Very risky, for sure, but I don't know. We sort of take these risks and are very happy with them. Yeah, take a good leap. I'm here for it. So you've moved to PDX. You're still there, still in Portland, still love it. Yep, yep. We now have more than one bathroom that everybody has to share. That was the big win. So thank you. Yep, yep. you continue on with your business. And as we've kind of already talked about the business, ups and downs, 2023, you've got one client. How's that bank account looking? so the gas tank is going lower and lower and lower. So here it is again, it's the next downturn, right? And it's like, at this point, knew one would, another one would show up, right? And then it's like, okay, so here we are. I took a rebrand project, because I've already went through that like, should I do stuff that's not culture? Yes, you should. And it, I, two things. One was I overstaffed it and two, it went off the rails. The client was hard to manage. And that while it helped me get through a couple months, at the end of the day, I just lost a lot of money on it. And so it was like the first part of the project. It was, I think it was a year project. The first part of the project, we were sort of like, you you sort of at the beginning of the month, like you get all your, you get your paycheck and you're like, great, we can do, can get all the, you know, expensive groceries or whatever it is. Like the first six months, everything was going well. But by the end, I'm starting to look at the bank account and I'm like, shit, I these people money and these people money and these people money. And it was like, fuck. And I can't just quit. project. I'm not that's just not in like that was definitely a possibility where you're like fire the client. I'm like, I don't want any more your money. can't spend I'm just losing money. But that was a values decision I couldn't I couldn't make I just didn't want to leave a client like that. And I don't know other people would make another decision I'm sure but I had to finish the project. I just had to do it. I appreciate that. think a lot of, I have a lot of solopreneurs very similarly have that same mindset. Like, you know what? I'm going to finish this. I committed to it. It might cost, but it probably is better for my brand and my values and who I am. Yeah, I don't know. It's sort of like, be true to your word. it just, honestly, it was like, I would never do that. Like, would never, like, there's just no way I could do that. was almost a gasp when someone was like, well, you could just fire them and stop the project. And, know, fire the client, get rid of the team. And I was like, what? That's not even an op. I was like, what? No way. There's no way I would do that. on the roadmap. even on the table? Yeah. I mean, I did, I did sit with it, right? I'm like, it was never, it was never something that I was going to do, but I was like, huh, that's interesting that I never even thought about it. So that was a very big, you know, that was like, don't know. And yeah, 2023 was like, really dumps. And, and it was tough, right? So starting to go into debt. and you know, I had to borrow money to pay out my, you know, contractors and, and pay myself. And then eventually a project ended and I stopped, you know, it's like, I, you know, luckily I had a business line of credit. So I paid myself for a little bit. And then, you know, it was just sort of, you know, living on on debt for a little bit. And that's just the way it goes. hey, you gotta make two and take those steps and you had options. And during this time, you launch Grey Mondays Radio. Mondays radio with the shoulders. Yeah, great Mondays radio. Yeah, I had had the opportunity to work with somebody to launch a podcast and it was a really nice. The reason why I decided to do it was because it's a business development tool. I really love doing it. I enjoy it, but it's this. great way to kind of get introductions to people that you want to do work with. And so I decided that even amidst this sort of debt, that it was something that was going to be worth investing in because if I was gonna continue to do this work, I needed to have a better way to not recession proof, downturn, downturn mitigate, you know, the business. And so that's why I decided to do launch the podcast and created a system that runs itself, not runs itself, but like, I have one person that supports me, I have a whole system. And, you know, it's like, it's like that classic kind of like here's my software stack, or I'm paying, you know, 10 10 bucks a month for this thing and 20 bucks a month for this thing. And I have an executive assistant and she just does all the production and essentially just gets it up and running. And I just have to secure the clients and host the interviews. And it's a really great way. I love learning from people. It's a great way to network in sort of our distributed world and creating the content and being present. And so I'm just using that learning how to use that content to kind of create. more opportunities to be out in the world and reinforce my brand. And yeah, I don't know. I really like doing it. Now, the question is, was it worth the time and energy and money that I invested in it? Maybe. What I will say is I haven't directly acquired any work from from the podcast yet. And so if and when, and I've gotten a number of conversations started through it, but nothing's landed, if and when I do, then it'll have paid off for sure. Now, you can talk about all the intangibles and the other stuff that have come from it and being present and all that stuff, that's fine. And so maybe it has in that way, but. I have not, it has not done the thing that it was supposed to do, which is like, get me more clients. Now it's probably, mean, I, I, I see, you know, I think over the, the course of this journey that I've taken more and more of that responsibility, I sort of own up to more and more of that. And I think part of my challenges, yes, I now have this great platform to meet new people, but I am not. very not great at sales and I need to productize what I offer better and make it easier for people to buy. And that's where I'm at with it now is trying to create like how do you and this is I think the the perennial consultant consultant's issue which is I'm brilliant you should just pay me because I'm I'm super smart I'll solve whatever problem you have and people don't buy like that. And so I'm working on sharpening my positioning, identifying a tighter target market, and productizing, creating products that are easier to sell. The other thing that happened, and this is the next point on the map, is the reality. OK, I know this downturn is happening, but Then you're like looking up and it's three months later and then you're looking up and it's three months later and you're like, this isn't getting better. What, what do I do? Do I get a job? do I get a job? And so, you know, I had this heart to heart with my wife and it's like, it's really painful. We're like, we're not, it's not successful. things are not going well. And I'm like, we have to cut back on this, this and this. And it's like, it's a reality, but it's also an identity thing. You know, it's like, it feels. It's just, you know, it's sort of in a capital, live by the capitalist sword, die by the capitalist sword. You are defined by, you know, it's hard to escape that idea that you're defined by your business financial success, especially when you're a solopreneur. So one of my goals in 2023, 20 when this, no, we're in 20, end of 2024. So one of my goals in 2024, I like sharp. just like. trimmed off everything and I was like, okay, I'm going to be doing three things only in 2024. One, servicing any existing clients, two, try to get new clients and three, get a job. else, everything else is off the table. I need to spend 100 % of my time doing that. And that was, you know, a really interesting exercise. I have not gotten any offers. did have a number of interviews. I did learn that my resume is basically transparent or invisible to any normal businesses that aren't consultancies. So I applied to a ton of places and like nothing, zero. I tried all the platforms and all the connections. And even when I had someone on the inside or whatever, it was like nothing. Like my resume, which only pretty much I framed as like Here's all the clients I've had, right? But it's like, it just doesn't read as someone with that kind of experience that you can translate. can imagine those people on the inside, I understand. They can't trust that I'm gonna be able to deliver what they're asking for, even though there's a number of different projects than jobs that I thought, well, these were awesome. I could totally do this. But I did get a lot of traction with consultants and consultancies. And that was good. So I've been through a number of interview processes and nothing ever panned out. there is still one conversation that I'm having having now, and I might join, there might be another agency that I join up with, but that was going pretty quick until it wasn't. And so I don't know, like I haven't heard from them in a while. And so maybe, maybe it works out. Maybe it doesn't. and at this point, I don't need to push that because like I We started by saying, like, I landed a big client. That was the next thing. Yeah. So now my journey goes up. I land the, my, biggest client that I've worked for ever, which is amazing. And I'm doing really incredible culture work. I'm to be going in Q1. I'm going to be flying around, giving, workshops to one particular, group, on. how to manage to values. So values driven leadership. And that's now gonna be one of my offerings, one of my products is values driven leadership and how do you manage not to outcomes but to values. And so I'm gonna be flying to China in February and London in March. yeah, it's great. then also by the way, like my... they sort of slow burn client that I had lost all that money on, I was still doing work for and it was low profit, but whatever. They were like, now they're like, we want you to do some more work. I'm like, of course. And then got another like rando inbound that may turn into something as well. And so it's like, really, you know, it's like, I'm a genius again. No, no, no, no, no, we learn, learn Kim. It turns out it's just, you know, I think the the and I end the I end my journey here is like this is my life now where it's like up down up down up down, you know, I hope it continues up. But like, I don't know. And I think where I where I end. Is. To really appreciate when the work is coming in and in two ways, one sort of just in that sort of like. philosophical, appreciate what the world is giving you. And the other is save the money, like appreciate like, you're like, look at all this money, I can just do whatever I want with it. But it's like, no, I need to be able to use that cash to be able to support when things dry up again, which inevitably it will. And even if I do get another job, you know, the trade off is, you know, consistency over sort of like a lot of money at once. It's I think it's I need to be more prudent, right? Less emotional with my my cash flow, right? Because last time I'm like, it's amazing. Look at all this for rainy money and like, yay, I can just spend all this money on all this stuff. And now it's like, nope, I'm going to we're still going to be very conservative. Obviously, I have some debt to pay off, which we should be able to do by end of Q1. But which is very nice. But we need to stay save that money. And and because that's being a solopreneur is a lot of money at once and then no money at all. And so that's, I have to continue to repeat that, to be able to survive if I'm going to survive on my own, and be a solopreneur and to make it more stable for my own career and for my my family to support my family, right? My son's going to college and all that. So I have to be a little more wise with running the business and a little more buttoned up, right? Like I kind of came into this being like, I'm a, I'm, have a really unique point of view. I'm really smart. I'm really gregarious. I can, you know, schmooze anybody. I can convince them of, you know, I can do these amazing values, but it's not just raw talent. that's going to get me to be able to run a sustainable business and to be able to have a, a life that I, you know, be able to support kind of, a middle-class lifestyle, as an entrepreneur, it's just, there's just so there's, there are fewer and fewer support mechanisms, as a, as a business owner. You don't have the support of colleagues or peers. You don't have the support of a business development team. You don't have the support of many projects. So if one of those goes away, then you still have others. and so I need to be better at defining those or providing myself that support and have more rigor, right? Be less emotional and a little more rigorous with running the business, which is not easy for me. You know, that's just not who I am. But how far you have come as a business owner since, you know, yeah. How gorgeous. Well, Josh, if any of our listeners want to find you and learn more about you, where can they find you? Well, you can email me, josh at great mondays.com. You can find all links to my podcast and my book at great mondays.com along with some of other work. And I'm also pretty active on LinkedIn. So you can look for me there, AKA Josh Levine. Josh, thank you so much for joining us. Everyone, thank you so much for tuning in and listening. Some of those links will be down in the description. Go ahead and check out Josh's journey line, and we will see you next time. Bye.